By - Platform987654321
If you're the DM, then have him send you the sheet. Make sure it's all actually allowed in the rules, that sounds a bit strong, even for minmax standards.
Other than that, Every now and then, toss in an enemy that can cast counterspell, or things resistant/immune to the damage type that massive attack does. Maybe things with magic resistance (advantage on saves against spells) would help too
Probably don't have these things in EVERY combat, but tossing em in from time to time may help alleviate the issue to some degree.
I use DNDbeyond for my campaign, but he has insisted that he wanted to use a paper sheet. The campaign starts next week, so I don’t know what his sheet will look like…
Definitely ask him to send a photo of his paper sheet... That's super suspicious
Yeah. My red flags for online play are "I want to use a paper sheet" and "I want to roll my physical dice"
That's fine and all, but you better be getting a webcam so I can see both lmao.
I wouldn't really consider them wanting to use a paper sheet a red flag, but if they refuse to send you a copy/photo of their sheets then that is definitely another red flag (the first one was them threatening to quit if they couldn't play their character)
I have a dndbeyond account and they don't really offer much to choose from for character creation without paying for it all, so they're likely not using it so they can customize their character.
But over all, they sound like a buzzkill. They know you're a new DM and they could EASILY create a powerful character without minmaxing.
Edit: correcting their pronouns
>the first one was them threatening to quit if they couldn't play their character
That's enough for me to know that I don't want this player at my table. My response would be "Alright, later"
No. It’s not fine. I’m not gonna be squinting and hoping you don’t block the view just enough to fudge with the dice every time you need to make a roll forever. You are not special in any way, don’t like it? Good luck on the furry find a table discord server
Nothing wrong with playing with physical dice with online play and honestly I don’t really care to see the dice roll either
It’s only when I start to notice trends that I’ll start to make changes
May be because I only DM for friends though
Demand he send it to you over a discord message or something, this reeks of shenanigans. Highest damage I've been able to come up with in a single turn at lv5 is 294, and that's assuming a paladin crits three smites against an undead, and then rolls max damage.
If this player isn't literally breaking the rules, it's highly likely the 300 damage is spread over multiple targets. The fact they're a Tempest Cleric makes this even more likely.
Still, 300 damage is kind of a pipe dream at lvl 5, they'd have to get a Call Lightning to hit 8+ people during a storm and somehow have all targets fail their saves.
call lightning's got a 5ft radius AOE, doesn't that make 4 tiles? That's 160 damage, assuming a storm, all creatures failing, and max damage
Either way, if they weren't outright breaking rules, why would he insist on using a format that the DM can't see, and then not send the DM a copy?
5ft radius is 9 tiles isn’t it?
5 ft "radius' meaning the total is 10ft. Though call lightning has a 60ft radius, meaning it's a 120ft circle, it requires a minimum of 30 ft clearance height wise and 60 feet width wise to even summon
Wow, just looked it up and that spell has a stupid amount of contingencies... but the 60ft radius is just the spell set up and range within you can call the lightning down. The strikes themselves have a 5ft radius in case anyone else comes along and was confused as well.
Correct, druids and tempest clerics are very powerful, but limited by the space they have for utility, each strike has a total 10ft AOE, the spell itself has a maximum range of 120ft. As long as you maintain concentration the spell continues and damage amplifies.
It targets an interesction, not a tile.
It targets a point, afaik. Which isn't necessarily a tile intersection
EDIT: Apparently I'm wrong and "a point you choose" must be a tile intersection. Imo, this is an incredibly stupid decision whose only purpose is to make AOE's easier to figure out on a grid, with the heavy downside of making them unintuitive and unfun to place. Good thing the grid rules are optional.
Wait... you can use smite more than once per hit?
Only once per hit buts many times in an attack as long youve got slots
I’m assuming two-weapon fighting, three critical hits, and then 2 second level smites and one 1st level smite
Not even two weapon fighting. 5th level has extra attack for Paladins and if the feat from 4th level was Great Weapon Fighting and they wield a Great sword then they can attack, extra attack, bonus action attack because they already landed a crit.
Could also be Hasted.
This has to be an AOE calculation. Call lightning from a tempest cleric can do 270 damage to 9 different enemies (if they’re all basically in a huddle).
There is a paladin build I made that does about 1k damage a turn but needs four people supporting him.
If a player can't (or won't) provide their sheet to the DM, it effectively doesn't exist. Insisting on a paper sheet for an online campaign is very strange as well - I'd be interested to hear their reasoning, because "I just want to do it that way" isn't really compelling.
Especially because you can print it out and then update it between sessions for anything that changes.
It’s not optional for me if I’m DMing. I see your sheet or you don’t play.
The people who don’t share their sheets also tend to have these insane attack capabilities that never make sense.
OP needs to be the leader of the table. That’s part of being a DM.
I examined sheets carefully for years.
I've got a good group, and I trust them. I don't supervise dice rolls, character sheets, or anything. If something seems out of whack, then I ask. Sometimes people make innocent mistakes - both ways - they forget to add in things, or add in things that do not stack.
Recently had a new-ish player join. She was using D&D beyond. Seemed like some stuff was OP and some was UP. Took a look and she and had some numbers too high, and some too low, just by nature of being new.
The OP's person seems like they want to "win" at D&D.
For real, OP really should kick that dude. If this is what they're like at the start? Give it a few sessions.
Very likely correct.
I feel like i win every week when me and my party sit and joke around while traversing the jungles of chult.
I get they might want a paper sheet, but couldn't they just print out a dnd beyond sheet and bring that instead? Assuming they are acting in good faith it's best of both worlds
Someone who explicitly attempts to circumvent dm rulings is not acting in good faith.
You're probably right. I'm assuming they are acting in good faith but they likely aren't. If you want to go through the bookkeeping of a paper sheet it wouldn't be difficult to update an online sheet on level up.
You are assuming good faith here. In like 99% of the cases where a person is doing what the guy in OPs text is doing it is because the person is cheating.
He could be using something like a book from the rook and the raven. Some people just prefer to use pencil and paper, we have a guy at our table that plays that way with a dry erase marker in his book. We also have two people (myself being one) who spent a good chunk of change on wyrmwood dice trays so when we have to do sessions online, we all trust each other to roll for ourselves and not cheat.
Now I don't see why this person couldn't still take a photo of the sheet, or do up a real digital copy just to send it to the DM, that is shady for sure.
I want to use bs “homebrew” from dndwiki
My buddy ran a purposefully overpowered campaign of homebrew exclusively. I took part in a few days of it and it was super fun/funny
I have all the hard copies and not the digital beyond books so my options are very limited making a character in beyond. However, to not let the DM see your sheet is very sketchy.
If the GM doesn’t see it, then it doesn’t exist.
Instant red flag.
If he won't show his character sheet, he is absolutely cheating and doesn't want you to know.
This! Why hide something?
Players must share their character sheets, period. Keeping it secret is unacceptable.
Then he's cheating. Sorry to say that, but whenever someone insists that they use a different medium than the rest of the group, it is suspect. Combine that with the ludicrous claims of possible damage, and cheating is the only explanation. I'd let them know that they can create their character on dndbeyond, and then print the information off and use a paper sheet, but having the sheet available for you to see is non-negotiable.
I mean I like my paper sheet, but I would just have it on my desk while I updated dnd beyond too. I think it’s always a red flag when they refuse to show their character.
I like paper sheets, partly because I don't like rebuying everything in D&D beyond. (I know it's a different company and that's why).
But even with paper sheets you share copies. That's the red flag here.
Dndbeyond just made sharing sheets easier, but not using it doesn't mean you don't have to share your sheet.
While I'd disagree that using a different medium is always a mask for cheating (I use notepad files exclusively because I find it easier to use a keyboard than clicking with a mouse and I have supreme customisabiltiy compared to the roll20 sheets the rest of the party uses. Though I keep basic info and a few shortcuts there.), not showing the DM is a issue. A huge issue. Really an operational prerequisite for fair play.
This is a key factor in many advice and horror story posts. Hate to say it but using a different medium than what everyone else is using is a big warning sign that the dude is cheating. I’ve min-maxed the hell out of Tempest Clerics before, and it’s impossible to get those damage numbers at level 5 without the use of several legendary items, which is most likely what your player is doing. D&D is all about transparency in communication, you can’t tell a story if you don’t know what a PC is mechanically capable of. Chances are this player can’t have fun without cheating, so if you harshly regulate it he might get so annoyed that he leaves on his own, but this last statement is terrible advice and wishful thinking.
He’s cheating and you should just kick him. **I play a tempest cleric**. The best he should be able to do on a turn is 3d8 within 15 feet of him with Spirit Guardians, or 3d10 in 5 feet with Call Lightning.
Well, 3d10 on nine squares if I remember correctly, so… 21d10 if they all bunch together? That is still only 210 damage if they all fail saves and channel divinity is popped as the action… then add spiritual weapon for 1d8+5 (assuming max stat for whatever reason).
Being generous and liking even numbers for this count that is 220 damage in one turn at level 5. Without gear or other magic items involved.
Now with prep a channeled glyph dealing lightning damage added to the same blast (procs on lightning strike, say) add another 40 lightning damage to four enemies for 380 in one turn.
With a LOT of prep. Add two to three more boosted glyphs (one floor two walls, three if in a dead end alley with open sky) that is another 360 lightning damage maximum in the same spot for a grand total of 640 lightning damage. Provided they always fail their saves and near to max damage on the spiritual weapon.
Yes, I like my Tempest Cleric too. You are only limited by imagination and prep time with casters.
Oh, was the AoE on Call Lightning 10 and not 5? In all honesty it's been a while since I played in that campaign because it was before covid and now my friend group is just plain busy. But I definitely enjoyed the range of things the tempest cleric could do even as early as level 5. Definitely wasn't a "worth" use of Channel Divinity, but one of my favorite things was using it on the 2d8 thunder/lightning reaction. Always funny when you kill someone on their turn for hitting you.
That is definitely cheating or fudging rules. Try talking to him and get someone else to look over the rules.
If he insists on not doing this remove him from the group as he will ruin the campaign if not.
Tell him it's easier for you as the DM if you have it all cebtralized in one location, in this case dndbeyond. Tell him you are willing to put it in and keep it up to date for him, so you can also have a copy of the sheet at any given time, if he'll just send you a photo of it.
This is a ridiculously easy request and if he denies it and your friendgroup backs him on it...I wouldn't DM for that friendgroup. It might hurt your reputation with them some, but your reputation might get hurt worse if you have a bad dnd campaign and close up shop half way through from burnout.
It doesn't matter who the friends side with, you're the DM. Are they going to overrule you with majority vote everytime you make something in the campaign they don't like happen?
That's my 2 cents. Hope this helps.
The answer is "great, you still need to build one on the service we're using but if you want a paper sheet in front of you, by all means."
Super sus. I bet he wants to roll physical dice too, "for the feel"
Just saying, it's perfectly fine to want to roll a physical dice, BUT the moment he doesn't want to stream his rolls or streams them at a very bad quality claiming he just hit 17 for the third time in a row is a giant red flag.
Yeah, he's 100% planning on cheating. It's okay to kick him out for that. If he can't follow the rules before session 0, he's doing to be an AWFUL player who will ruin the fun for everyone at the table including you.
Being a DM is hard, but it's your job to make sure no one ruins your game. If he doesn't like it, he can go DM his own game.
This is a red flag.
INSIST he use DnDBeyond so you have an easy copy to check.
He can have his paper copy for himself.
I check my players sheets every few months to make sure they haven’t cheated or messed something up.
He might not have ask the digital access but it’s pretty good at not misinterpreting the rules.
Also, he’s probably cherry picking rules from multiple sources. I cut down on this by having players use the PHB plus no more than 2 other sources
No of you guys are doing it in person it is ok for him to use paper sheets as long as he shows you them. There are many things not immediately available in DnD beyond without paying for them. It’s actually pretty frustrating sometimes.
I guess I’ve been spoiled since I have a buddy that got the legendary bundle some time ago and adds his profile to all my games
We all have that one friend <3
Asking for copies of people's character sheets beforehand is super common. Even for people who prefer paper sheets. (Like me). Get him to send you a picture.
It couldn't be more obvious that he's lying to you...
No. You're the DM and you determine what is used. If you do paper, everyone goes paper. If you go DnD beyond, that's everyone else as well. You're opening yourself up to a world of pain in the arse if you don't put your foot down on shit like that in the beginning. You're already letting him have a superbuild and giving him half of an amazing item, that is generous, some might argue too generous. If he gets to use other tools than everyone else, expect an awful lot of crits rolling in and all sorts of shit happening that you won't be able to track. Don't do this to yourself it's going to suck.
And this campaign is online or in person??
Does he have a mobile phone, with a camera, and access to text messages?
you should be able to get a copy of it in minutes.
Yeah, I had a player refuse to use dndbeyond when everyone else in the group was and he insisted on using his own app. The end result was pathfinder spells in a 5e campaign.... He is absolutely trying to cheat. I now make it very clear that anyone in my campaign has to have an updated character sheet on dndbeyond and if I can't find something on their sheet they can't use it.
Yes, that means sources are limited to what he owns in dndbeyond, which is why he probably doesn't want to use it, but that's his problem.
Another useful tip in case you didn't do this is that you can choose what sources you will be using for the campaign. You can tell everyone they can only make characters using the PHB and Xanthars Guide to Everything for example if that's all you want to allow. My general rule is you can only make characters with sources I own , so I can check things. My player mentioned above is very difficult and I've found this is the only way to rein him in, otherwise he exploits my inability to check a rule and just makes stuff up.
I always use paper sheets, but I also build the character in D&D beyond so the DM can see it (and to double check my maths). There’s no reason he can’t do that.
This is the way.
A PC wants to be more powerful than their peers? Let their power attract the attention it warrants from powerful NPCs. Perhaps the rest of the party will enjoy this type of dynamic.
The rest of the party isn't vibing with the OP PC? Hit them with politics, puzzles, and powerful items for everyone but your problem minmax player. Throw them a bone with lesser magic items but do this so everyone feels they have a role.
At the end of the day, it's just about having fun. Maybe ask everyone individually how they are enjoying the campaign. If it's not working, maybe talk with the group about how everyone can enjoy it more. It's gotta be a group effort to have fun.
I have no idea how a LVL 5 does 300 damage. Meteor swarm does 240 MAX.
This sounds like a problem player to me. either he's messing up the rules or he's cheating. And this "my way or the highway" attitude doesn't fly. This is a group game.
Doesn’t say to a single target, which could be key. I’ve seen a Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorcerer multiclass deal insane damage by specializing in lightning spells and having targets that lined up optimally. Not sure what levels of each you need though.
Tempest Clerics are no joke in any regard. Definitely not 300 points of damage levels, but in the homebrew campaign I'm in my character recently went one on one with a Tempest Cleric NPC and he was inches from dying. And I play the damn tank for our group, anyone else would have been rolling death saving throws several turns before.
Technically if they had access to lightning bolt they would only need about 6-7 characters in a line to deal that damage. Channel divinity for max damage, 48 per target. It's not likely, but definitely doable.
I was about to say this but Tempest domain doesn't naturally get access to lightning bolt...but they do get Call Lightning? Deals 3d10 to a target and everyone w/in 5ft, dex save to halve damage.
300 dmg with Call Lightning is possible, but highly unlikely. They'd have to find 9 enemies clumped together, outdoors, have them all fail their saves, to get to 270 dmg. Same situation + stormy when they call lightning gets you to 360 theoretical dmg.
OP, I'd definitely ask your "minmaxer" how they're getting to that number, cause if it's just Channel Divinity on a super well-placed Call Lightning w/ enemies failing their saves, this isn't a problem.
Just don't put your enemies that close together. Or have fights be indoors.
Won't work RAW, you need to put it on the spot where 4 tiles meet (not native in english and not sure how to say it better). And those 4 tiles are the tiles you hit so even then it is only 30\*4=120 dammage.
Don't forget up and down. Creatures can fly and be mounted.
Bugbear Monk 2/Assassin 3 with surprise, the Gloves of Soul Catching, a Blood Fury Tattoo, and a couple Teeth of Dahlver Nar can shatter 300 on the opening/surprise turn.
But, yeah, Cleric and OP didn't say he gave out artifacts like tic tacs so not happening.
He wanted a wish spell but I only gave him half of a wish scroll and gave the other half to the BBEG. The scroll needs to be whole to cast wish. I turned his stupid request into an interesting plot point.
He wanted a wish at the start of the campaign for free?
Have fun. (It won't be)
Isn’t Wish a ninth level spell?
Wish is *the* ninth level spell if you ask the majority.
There are other 9th level spells? I thought it was wish and then funs things you could do with it.
True polymorph is fun too. You can just turn a badguy into a chair, or turn your allies into dragons(including yourself) permanently while keeping your spellcasting. You can also just change a bolder into a minion you comand for an hour at which point it remains, and just acts according to its own will.
Yeah, just give him the wish scroll ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Can't use it because it's not a cleric spell...
Even if he could, he has to roll a DC 19 spellcasting check or it disappears.
You dropped this "\\\"
Or he could suceed and be so weak after he cant cast a divine spell ever
Wish fatigue doesn't affect your ability to cast divine spells.
* You take 1d10 necrotic damage per spell level when you cast any spell until you long rest
* Drop your Strength to 3 for 2d4 days
* 33% chance to never be able to cast Wish again
So, the BBEG is going to get the PC's half of the scroll, and use it.
That wasn't a question.
god help you if you let them get the other half from the bbeg, im willing to bet theyve had a wish written to cover all loopholes since they got their half
The wish scroll is cursed. It does the opposite of whatever you ask.
Campaign ends as BBEG dies, never get to use the scroll except for post-story which is irrelevant in terms of how powerful the wish is
Wording it specifically doesn't negate any bad effects if you wish for something other than what is listed in the spell. People using this spell wrong is the only reason you get these ridiculous scenarios.
The god responding to the Wish: No.
DM: Your scroll is consumed and nothing happens. Now what do you do?
Remember, for any Wish that isn't enumerated in the spell description, the DM "has great latitude in ruling what occurs". Including nothing happening at all. It doesn't matter how carefully you word your Wish.
Bonus: if you Wish for anything except a spell level 8 or below, you suffer Wish fatigue. Even if the Wish does nothing.
Oh, and let's not forget that the player needs to be a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Genie Warlock in order to cast Wish from a scroll in the first place, a pure Cleric can't do it. And then the player needs to roll d20+Cha or Int (depending on class) DC 19 in order to cast it. Even if they have 20 in their secondary caster class ability score, they only have 35% chance to successfully cast the spell scroll.
Also "the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong." If OP allows the the player to actually unify the wish scroll, it doesn't have to be a (imo) boring "god says no".
Have the BBEG wish for minmaxer to be transformed into a crippled lvl 1 old farmer.
Absolutely sounds like a problem player if he wants a wish right off the bat...
Agreed. Lvl 5 and wanting the most OP spell of them all...
“He wanted a wish spell”… bye Felecia. I have baited the whole party into a years long campaign with the promise that they will each get a single use “wish stone” at the END.
And the BBEG burns the other half of the scroll in front of him!
>He wanted a wish spell but I only gave him half of a wish scroll
Oh, honey. You are amazing and strong and beautiful. But you have been taken advantage of.
No the BBEG will repair the two halves and use it himself
Is there a way in which the half he has appears to be a wish spell, but the other half is a demon wish4soul contract. As soon as his wish is granted, he immediately gets sent to hell?
If you're dumb enough to want a wish spell, you're dumb enough to deserve the results of a wish spell gone awry.
So this player says they're broken and then asks for an item cuz they aren't strong enough. Gross.
yeah i'm confused on that part as well... I can see 72 in a single turn at level 5 (level 3 witchbolt, use magic adept to grab the spell and use channel divinity to max the damage on a crit) but definitely not 300. they're either violating some rules or they are doing something completely janky that it *could* in theory do that much in a turn but almost never will.
Path to the grave and max damage level 3 inflict wounds on a paralyzed target can deal 200.
Ask him to elaborate, I want to know why he can deal 300 damage at lvl 5 because my first thought is that it sounds like he is abusing your (understandable) lack of knowledge.
Maybe he can deal that much damage in a specific situation. Still it sounds a bit like a freud. I mean, to deal that much damage he has to roll 30d10 or 15d20 in a single spell which is clearly out of the league of a 5th level caster.
To make an example, one of my players plays a sorcerer focusing on dealong great amount of damage, he is at 5th level and is strongest spell is fireball which if all dice roll maximum deals 48 fire damage.
Lightning bolt against 7 enemies in a line who all fail their save, plus channel divinity:destructive Wrath, is the only way to deal over 300 damage as a cleric at level 5, and it's split 7 ways.
Actually even that wouldnt work, you'd need to be at least 2 levels in Tempest Cleric *and* another 5 levels in Wizard or Sorcerer. Tempest Cleric does not get Lightning Bolt
So basically, only at level 7 could that combo work
Damn that's wild. Should be a domain spell for sure. I just assume it was lol. Probably because most MC into sorc. A level 5 Tempest cleric can do very little damage then. Max shatter is maybe the best?
Well, they do get Call Lightning.
If using Hex 5 foot tiles, thats up to 7 targets at once with CL, during a thunderstorm for 1 extra d10, and if all fail their save thats 7(40)=280 Lightning damage as the MOST a level 5 Tempest could put out, and under perfect circumstances.
Perhaps they were rounding up to 300 from that?
Perhaps! If so, nothing to worry about here. Tempest is a fine domain, but I don't see any way a level 5 Tempest cleric could min max enough to ruin a game. Now some of the comments from OP are throwing up red flags about cheating, but it's really easy to point to the books and say "you can't do that."
Shatter hits 12 squares. At level 5, it deals 4d8=maximized 32 damage. 32\*12=384 damage.
I'm guessing this is what it is. Everyone freaking out that he's definitely cheating when it's an obnoxious 16 year old bragging about best case AOE that will never
Okay, you might say you don't want to or can't ditch him, but you should abso-fucking-lutely ditch him. This kind of antagonistic "I made a super build and I won't explain it, just give vague hints"-attitude is bullshit and you *don't* want it in your party, trust me on that. *Especially* when it comes from a veteran player (him) and is targeted towards a far less experienced player (you).
Basically, you don't have a min-max problem, you have an asshole player problem.
EDIT: I just want to add: I like min-maxing, I do it often. I've min-maxed the hell out of a Tempest Cleric in the past myself, it's a fun one to play with! The important difference is that I've explained every part of every single min-max build to my DM before actually bringing in the character, to make sure my DM and I was on the same page, and if my DM told me "Please don't do that" I'd change it no issue because I want them to have fun too.
Well, first off, the campaign starts next week, and that is where I plan session 0. I will probably be shown his sheet next week. Also, he is in my friend group, so it would make me the bad guy, plus my friends have sided with him, so there is that. Lastly it is a school DND club, so you might understand why I can’t just “kick him out”
Biggest thing is to make sure he actually tells you why and how he does things in that build, and that all other players are ok with it, including you because the DM is just another player with a different role in the game
All my this. The DM is a player as much as anyone else at the table. It's never been DM against players, it's always been everyone telling a story together.
Balance two combats in the session. A combat focused entirely on the rest of the party and a combat focused on the Cleric. The Cleric wipes the party combat but is going to be watching as their friends go down because of action economy and they are the only person able to remotely handle it and even then it’s gonna be challenging.
You could also simply refuse to DM. If the group would side with the problem player, the group will have to have someone else step up to DM the problem player. If nobody wants to DM, well sucks for them. They need a DM as much as a DM needs players.
They need a DM infinitely more than they need an extra player.
Yep, a DM needs players but DMs are harder to keep if the playgroup isn’t going to work with the DM and one player makes it adversarial.
Copy his character sheet, post images, and let people here tell you specifically how much his PC is bullshit.
Then point the rest of the friend group to the thread.
Yeah I second this also you can do things such as make him roll his damage in the open roll stats in front of you ect. You could also homebrew stuff that puts him at a disadvantage remember the rules in the books are guidelines ultimately you are the dm and there is no game without you. I get that you can't remove him but you can neuter him. Make more roleplay heavy sessions rather than combat heavy. Introduce challenges from his deity that limit his abilities. If he refuses them he loses his powers since he literally draws power from the God. You could also talk with the player and explain that you are new to dming and please don't bring a heavy minmax build to the table. Communication is super important with stuff like this. Also don't feel you have to combat challenge them every time punish his combat effectiveness with out of combat traps and puzzles. What is 300 damage to a rolling Boulder trap that can kill him if he doesn't get out in time or repeated arrow traps that whittle away at his spell slots making him heal instead of deal damage. Make rests infrequent and have consequences if they rest in unsafe locations. If you have discord message me and I could give you hundreds of ideas. I've been playing dnd for 12 years now and dealt with dozens of minmaxers. Maybe if that is the fantasy he wants then let him have his fun but if the other players complain that is when you have to do something about it.
TLDR: challenge him outside of combat and talk with the player either explain if he minmaxes combat will be too easy and get feedback from the others. If they are fine with it then you don't need to worry and you get to use the fun section of the monster manual.
This. This is the way
This guy has it.
Oh please this. I've gotta see what kind of crazy bullshit this dude is trying to pull
Just remember: greater invisibility and counterspell are things you can use. Honestly with this kind of a player I would strongly recommend booting him if he's going to act that way, but if he's going to min-max to that level then just design almost every encounter to take great advantage of his weaknesses.
Okay, sounds like you're not very old then, I assumed you were adults - always good information to include if you're on the younger side, as it changes things a little on how problems are fixed (since a lot can be fixed by "talking as adults"). Regardless of friend group and school club, you can still absolutely kick him out though, but I get why you won't - just remember that being friends doesn't automatically make someone good to play DnD with, so if push comes to shove, don't let him ruin it for you.
That being said, since you're in a rough spot, just make it clear to your party that this isn't a 'you versus them' situation and you need to know their builds, etc. so you can work with them - they shouldn't just hint things at you, they should openly and willingly explain their general plans. Have the dude walk you through how he does this insane damage and if something is unclear to you or seems fishy (just because he's more veteran doesn't mean he can't be wrong!) come back and ask for clearification.
We are like in the 16-18 range
You mentioned you are pretty new to dnd, what level did you get up to last time, was the other player playing with you? In that age range they probably have mixed expectations of what dnd is, i.e. may be expecting to level up every session like a video game, may be trying to "win" dnd, or view you the DM as an adversary.
I would recommend deciding what level you want to finish up at and discuss during session 0 (props for having a session 0 btw! That's a great practice), I would say finish around 11-13 tops for a new DM, I would say even lower but you are starting at level 5 (which seems like a high level to begin).
For the min maxing you have to put your foot down, have a list of what is acceptable for you in terms of character options and only let all your players select from that list. My recommended list for you would be:
* No UA content, no critical role content, no homebrew content
* Only allowed to use the player's handbook, Tasha's cauldron of everything, Xanathar's guide to everything (if they need a specific other book you can check to make sure it's not too powerful)
Regarding other rule abuses just remember you have the rules given to you in the books, you have sage advice to clarify some of those rules and you have your own judgement. You should try to follow the rules as much as possible (especially as a new DM) but if after having played with a rule you find that the player is abusing something (usually a rules as written vs rules as intended issue) you have the right as a DM to say I want to play that rule differently. This also applies if there isn't a rule for a circumstance or if the rules aren't clear (remember you can always make a ruling and change your mind later as long as you tell your players).
In the end it doesn't seem like they are being antagonistic they just find it fun to break the game, try to set expectations during the session 0 and remind them all it's a team game and everyone should be having fun and that includes you.
P.s. a mistake lots of people make as a first time DM is to give out too many magic items, easy way for any player to become too powerful
Once you have session 0, come on back and add to this growing saga. We will help you “balance” things out. Be it through appealing to the other players to nerf him, or other in game means.
Can you post his sheet here when you get it? I wanna see reddit destroy his character with all the rules he's clearly breaking
You gotta drop this, man. Let this be a lesson in DM'ing.
Don't let a player bully you at the expense of the group.
He needs to explain how his character is going to work (aka deal that ridiculously dumb amount of damage) to you and the other players. You need to explain to the other players that two things are *likely* going to happen from time to time, if they aren't minmaxing like the Storm Cleric:
1.) The enemies will be leveled towards the minmaxer. They will have to focus their party around staying alive and supporting the minmaxer, as the enemies will likely be too strong for the party to handle by themselves.
2.) The enemies will be leveled towards the party. The minmaxer can hold back to let the party shine, or those fights will mainly be the Storm Cleric rolling the encounters as the enemies will be too weak compared to him.
Tell them you will try to make fun encounters regardless of what they decide, but you shouldn't be expected to create fun and diverse fights for every single encounter.
The players only have to create *characters* once or twice. You have to create 3-6 *parties* every session. The game has many built-in tools to help make this task easier for DMs, but most of those tools are designed around a balanced party.
You can use multiple encounters to wear down his spell uses. You can create puzzles that force him to use his spells. You can force environmental hazards to cause the party to make tough decisions like splitting up. You can use skill checks (not all encounters are fights) to let the other players shine. You can have elite units start focusing the Storm Cleric when they find out how easily he wiped one of their scouting parties.
There are tons of ways to actually make an unbalanced party work, but expecting a DM - especially a new one - to create so many balanced and varied encounters for an unbalanced party is bullshit.
##Edit: Oh, you can also create custom monsters that are stupid broken.
(Spoilers on the random chance anyone watches or might watch Tombs of Scoria. This is like 160 hours into the campaign).
A DnD campaign I watch on YouTube had a custom Orb of Annihilation that threatened to ruin the party's current quest. They had a small convoy with them, driven by sled dogs and one buff dude with a belt of strength equipped (one team of dogs was killed in an earlier session).
Most of the convoy couldn't damage the Orb (immune to non-magic weapons), and it dealt cold damage to anything near it. It had already KOd two dogs just by drifting near the convoy as they turned to run (sleds can't just 180°).
The convoy got some distance, but they couldn't go further back into the woods as it was FULL of regenerating undead. Luckily, the handful of spellcasters and fighters who actually had enchanted weapons had managed to whittle the Orb down. With the Orb less than half as large as it had been, and seeing the convoy wasn't nearby anymore, the wizard cast Fireball and...
Healed the Orb to almost full health, and the fight continued on....
*(Oh and even if the party of Tombs of Scoria isn't your cup of tea, I would definitely suggest looking up the DM, Koibu. He may not be as theatrical as some DMs, but damn, dude knows how to world build, write campaigns, and create all sorts of interesting encounters).*
If they side with him, give em 1-3 high CR enemy with lots of life. The damage to the rest of the group will be **devastating** and they'll be like "what was that?!" to which you respond "I know right? Balancing for that kind of character really made things rough for everyone else."
Or maybe don't be super petty, but you can definitely *explain* that if they want to back that outlier of a build, it comes with some real significant danger for them. No one will be having fun while he proves that he can ruin a game.
P.S. that damage doesn't sound legit so there's that, but plenty gave said as much.
Does your club have a teacher sponsoring/running it? If so, you might need to bring them in on this. The point of D&D is for everyone to have fun, not for players to have fun at their DM's expense. This friend of yours is not treating you respectfully as a friend, much less a DM.
>It can do 300 damage in a single turn
Unless you are PACKING hundreds of tiny creatures in range of his whatever this isn't possible. You guys have misinterpreted something.
That is just what he said. He mentioned that he needed 5 turns to set it up, though.
So… it’s useless?
Yeah, he’s going to be very frustrated his one weird trick never actually gets used
Oh, that's fine. Combat will be long over by that time and he'll have likely wasted multiple spell slots in trying to set up.
I still don't see the possible combo that would do that so keep an eye out for misunderstanding how things work but anything that requires that much prep is a bad choice anyway.
There is a td:lr at end of post.
A good idea would be to attempt to prevent long rests. Like sure they have time for a short rest, but a long one takes 8 hours to perform. Make alot happen in a day. I mean if they clear out some bandits that shouldn't take all day to do so.
Send them off on their next quest. Throw in time sensitive tasks. So they cant just put off the quest and long rest. Maybe the bandits will attack a settlement or leave their encampment in a few hours or the item they are trying to aquire will move locations the following day.
There is no way he can sustain 300 damage a turn. Starve him of his spell slots.
Another option is to also make the enemies smarter. An archer or mage would prioritize the dude who just nuked their friend from orbit. Make him have to waste precious spell slots to defend/heal himself rather than use them offensively.
td:lr His cleric burns hot but also burns fast. Punish him for this. Force him to use spell slots defensively and force him to not have the luxury to always recover spell slots. Make him think about weather using the tactical nuke he claims to have is worth it for this encounter.
Also there is no way a level 5 can two shot a tarrasque. I call bull.
He's lying or cheating.
Or just doesn't understand the rules... Possibly on purpose
The fact that he’s intentionally hiding his sheet smells of cheating though. I’d never have that fly at my table.
I can’t even remember the last time a combat encounter lasted five rounds. That’s, like boss territory.
Theorycrafting is fun but those situations rarely actually come up in game. That said, never forget that you control encounters and not only that, you can literally just lie. He did 187 damage in the first round of combat? You forgot to subtract it oops. Counterspell his shit. Sorry this guy is immune to lightning.
And don’t let someone hold your game hostage by insisting on prioritizing their own enjoyment over everyone else’s. That is not someone you want in your group and it is 10x better to have one less player and everyone has a good time, than it is to have a “full party”. Unless your quality of life is dependent on this person somehow, which is an even worse abuse of power, you can absolutely kick them from the group.
Simple. They are cheating or misusing rules.
Also...shouldn't the dm know the players sheets?
I'm new so ifk if folks are different. But I had zero issues with the dm knowing what's up and saw my stuff.
The DM should ALWAYS have access to ALL information about the game, if they request it (a DM doesn't have to request it, if they'd prefer not to know, but they can at all times). They are literally omnipotent and omniscient in their D&D world. Granted, a good DM would never abuse the knowledge and would strive to play towards the players' strengths, but a player hiding information from the DM is breaking one of the few set in stone rules of D&D.
Send in waves of smaller creatures.
When he burns the big smite then send in the big hitters.
When he figures it out, switch it up so he ends up always saving the combo.
Or just let him kill it. So what? Do checkpoints leveling and not XP leveling.
Killing as big creature does not matter anymore.
So much this, specifically the second half. But it’s hard to set up a five round spell if he’s got a mobile chewing on his ankle. If he gets the others in the team to defend him while he takes the time, maybe they want it too.
But I plan on the bosses having unique mechanics, which might not be explored if they are killed in one hit. For example, I have an idea for this cool “DJ Snake” boss who will spin the entire arena like a record.
But it is not one round it is 4 or 5 as he stacks.
And if any of them require concentration, then break it.
And then there is counterspell.
And legendary resistance, and lair actions.
You have so many tools, more than he does.
Also, use his reputation. Enemies start hearing about “The Stormbringer” and that is why they focus on him
That would be pretty hilarious if he spends five rounds setting up the big attack and it could be counterspelled :)
It would be the rough equivalent of the bad guy monologuing, giving the heroes time to thwart their trap.
He doesn't know how much hp stuff has. As the dm, while not always appropriate, you can just add some more hp to your guy. He only kills stuff in 1 hit if you let him
Give the bosses legendary resistances. That’s why they exist, to prevent bosses from being gimmicked to death
Give bosses multiple phases. He slaughtered it? Cool it's dead, he did 300 damage to something with 80hp... the ground shakes and from the corpse of dj snake rises dj snakezilla!
Hello, I’m assuming it has to do with his cleric’s channel divinity which allows them to deal max damage if the damage type is thunder or lightning. Maybe have monsters that are immune to lightning/thunder or that regenerate from those types of damage? I wouldn’t say make his PC useless in a fight but tweaking monsters a bit never hurts. What is the theme/setting of your campaign if you don’t mind me asking?
If his reaction to "hey I dont want a min max character in the game because the other players aren't min maxed so I can't balance encounters" is to say "no I'm not going to play" then just say "ok well thanks anyway, ill keep you in mind the next game I want to run"
This is an obvious red flag that the player is going to be a problem and it hurts the game more to try to accommodate a problem player. You told him "this is the game I'm going to run" and his answer was "then I dont want to play" then youbjustbsay fine and be glad youbdont have to deal with that
Well, I see a very real posibility that he is misinterpreting something on the rules, taking something with a very open intepretation or imaginining a very specific and ideal situation for their character.
If he does not want to tell you and you don't want to outright ban it, let it play out, see what the supossed combo is. There's a chance the combo is not that good (from other comments, it takes 5 turns to set up) or outright wrong, so letting it play out is the only way I see to get more elaboration on this combo and also having the chance to explain that it doesn't work or that you will rule it differently
This is a little excerpt of what he sent to me:
Alright, let's talk about attempts to find the single-target damage cap. Unlike most nova damage builds, we'll be using magic instead of attack rolls. Will we get there? maybe. Will it be stupid? yes. Spoilers: it uses multiple forms of broken UA.
Here's the build.
--Aasimar (any flavor is fine, we'll use Protector for this example)
--Twilight Druid 16
--Lore Master Wizard 2
--Tempest (Zeal works too) Cleric 2
Alright, here's the biggest damage you can do.
You cast Magic Missile. Magic missile is quite unique for two reasons. First of all, it uses 1 damage roll for multiple instances of damage: each dart shares a single damage roll (1d4+1). Secondarily, its upcasting benefit is multiplicative: you get more darts instead of more damage. For example, a 9th level magic missile deals (1d4+1) times 11 damage, an average of 3.5 damage each missile and 38.5 damage in total. Not the best way to spend a 9th level slot.
The next piece of the puzzle is Harvest Scythe, the 2nd-level ability of the UA Twilight Druid. Harvest Scythe gives an additive bonus to spell damage rolls equal to a number of d10s equal to half our druid level at once, and with our 16 levels in the subclass, it will add 8d10 necrotic damage to a single spell damage roll in one go.
If you're following, here's what we have: Magic Missile, cast at 9th level. We have 11 missiles, each dealing 1d4+1+8d10 damage, all sharing one roll. That's an average of 47.5 times 11, or 522.5 damage. Not shabby at all.
But we can get dumber.
Aasimar's racial ability Radiant Soul is another additive damage increase to damage rolls that triggers upon hitting a single creature, adding a flat 20 radiant damage (our level) onto our missile roll. This increases the damage to 67.5 times 11 damage, or 742.5 damage total. We're in full optimized territory here.
And yet, we can get even dumber.
Here's where the multiclass options come in. Tempest Cleric gives us a few good things, but the relevant one here is the Channel Divinity option Destructive Wrath, which allows us to deal maximum damage instead of rolling when we roll lightning or thunder damage. At first glance, this seems quite useless. However...
Our other multiclass is the favorite whipping boy of UA haters everywhere, and for good reason. Lore Master Wizard is completely busted, though our usage of it is minimal. We use Spell Secrets, the second level ability, to change our horrible mishmash missile mayhem of force, necrotic, and radiant damage all universally to clear, simple Lightning. And therefore, allow it to be affected by our Channel Divinity.
For those still with me, we now have: 1d4(4)+1+8d10(80)+20 times 11 damage. That's a flat 105 damage per missile, 11 times for a total of 1'155 damage, no save, no attack roll. Where will this much ever be necessary? We're not sure. Can you kill a god with this? Maybe. Will your DM be irritated that you used not one, but two busted pieces of UA content? Likely.
Ok next up
Variant Human (Magic Initiate Feat for Druid Cantrips+Spell: Guidance, Shillelagh, and Goodberry), plus a sensible background (don't have PHB in front of me to help here), and Life Domain, using chainmail (or platemail, seeing as you're starting at lvl 10), a shield, and quarterstaff. Now your Goodberries (which you can summon 10 of per day without using any spell slots) are essentially 4hp healing potions (thanks to Life Domain feature) that eliminate the need for food that day, you have great AC with platemail, shield, and perhaps shield of faith spell (18+2+2=22, I believe) making you harder to hit. Also, with the shillelagh cantrip, your quarter staff is a d8 magical weapon that uses your WISDOM (no need for Str on this character) for attack and damage rolls, and with the Polearms Master Feat (at level 4), you can get a free attack of opportunity when an enemy comes within 5 ft. of you, and you get a bonus 1d4 attack.
There is a ton more to add to this, I'm sure, but this is all I have off the top of my head (and while at work haha). I hope that helps! :)
EDIT: also, make your shield your somatic item (spell casting focus, so you don't have to worry about casting while using both hands). Also, working to get the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrips (From SCAG) would really help to add some extra oomph (especially when paired with the War Caster feat at lvl 8, allowing you to do amazing damage when enemies enter your range, attacking with a booming blade as your AO, which would give you a 3d8 attack of opportunity at level 10)! You could multiclass into Wizard, Warlock, or Sorcerer for this, or take the Magic Initiate feat again (I'd go wizard for Booming Blade, [Another Cantrip], and Find Familiar. Familiars also help a ton in battle by sitting in your hood, taking the "Help Action" every turn, to give you advantage on one attack. With all this going on, I'd avoid rushing you haha.
Wait, wait, wait, this isn't even really a Tempest Cleric build? This is a strange multiclass that relies on ancient and abandoned UAs?
Just tell the dude you're only going to work with printed subclasses, which you absolutely only should considering you're a new DM, and move on. He can still *kinda* do the build using Order of the Scribes Wizard, but none of this stupid shenanigans.
I feel like that lady in the Facebook commercial. "That's not how this works... that's not how \*any\* of this works!" There is so much wrong here. You need to insist on this player using DDB just like everyone else at the table.
eta: the "misreading" of Radiant Soul is particularly egregious to me, considering the text is very clear and it's one of the non-UA combos with magic missile that he will cling to after you ban UA (which you should). "...once on each of your turns, you can deal extra radiant damage to one target when you deal damage to it with an attack or a spell. The extra radiant damage equals your level." You don't add it to every single magic missile, you can only do it once. Pick one of the missiles and add 20.
"Can you kill a god with this? Maybe. Will your DM be irritated that you used not one, but two busted pieces of UA content? Likely." I really don't feel like your table will lose anything of importance without this kind of attitude there.
"and Life Domain" You can not dip a class twice. Am I reading this right? He wants to dip into Tempest Cleric \*and\* Life Cleric? Yegads.
For anyone interested, here's the [original Reddit thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/b7k2ja/a_further_optimization_of_the_nuclear_druid_or/) it appears this player used for, ah, "inspiration" on this build. There's a lot of critiquing in here on this build.
So First UA is not balanced tested just say that and you do not wanna allow it, or go even further and make it AL rules if its a school game.
2nd he has misunderstood a few rules there. with the Magic Missile
While yes there are arguments that you only roll once for Magic Missile due to PHB "If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them." you could very reasonably argue that rule only applies if you hit AT LEAST 2 targets, 1 target = rule does not apply and all darts are rolled individually. So thats down to 10 darts max to a target, also the Radiant Soul clearly says its a once per turn thing so its not (1d4 + 8d10 + 21) x 10, it would be (1d4 + 8d10 + 1) x10 + 20. Also Lore Master's Spell Secrets only applies to 1 damage type per spell cast so while not a major loss since the 8d10 necrotic would still be an 80 he does have to roll the 1d4.
Also most of this is moot cause the Shield spell exists with the line "you take no damage from magic missile." for a lvl 1 spell slot reaction Or the uncommon magic item Brooch of Shielding which while worn causes you to take no damage from magic missile.
So with the druid magic initiate+PAM feat thing what he has gained is 10x4hp berries per day, Guidance cantrip and Shillelagh. Which is not terrible the berries are good healing but its a once a day thing and they expire after 24 hours so cant stack. Guidance is a good cantrip but not super busted and Shillelagh is really just bumping a d6 to a d8 for a bonus action. And he can use his reaction to opportunity attack when they enter his range also but he still only gets 1 reaction per round. As for the d4 attack that is a bonus action attack you can make when you use your action to attack. So really PAM is very weak for this especially since he is a cleric who have MUCH MUCH better uses for their bonus actions with spiritual weapon etc. Oh and to make his shield his Somatic item would take another feat Warcaster. As for find familiar just ask him how the familiar is giving help that gives him that advantage also they have low AC(10-13) and (1-3)HP they die quick and once dead need an hour and 10g to resummon.
This one isnt that bad, as for the super high AC cool saving throws exist lets see how that cleric dodges a fireball would also incinerate the familiar
So TLDR: Don't allow UA, once you have his sheet post it hear and you will get plenty of tips on how to counter him and confirm if his build is legal.
Oh. So he's not level 5 doing 300 damage a turn. He's a level 20 doing 300 a turn. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems a bit underwhelming, especially if it takes 5 turns to set up.
fighter 20 does (no crits no misses no resources) 100.
Subclassless rogue 19 fighter 1 does 60 with booming blade that doesn't trigger. XBow Sharpshooter rogue is 72.
9th level animate objects does 117 nonmagical.
Eldritch Blast with Spirit Shroud is 78.
300 is good. Divided by 5 turns is 50, which is worse than a rogue.
... Are you starting at level 20? Is this the minmax character you're talking about?
OK I took the time to read this gobbledygook. If you choose to allow all the stupid UA weirdness, there's still one (well, several, but essentially one) key, hole in their logic, in my opinion.
Magic missile is one spell. Each missile does not count as a separate spell. He should only be able to add the buffs of harvest scythe and radiant soul one time. His math is currently (x * d4 + harvest scythe + radiant soul). It should be (x *d4) + harvest scythe + radiant soul.
Furthermore, harvest scythe is a pool of d8s, that are expended upon use. So I would rule that he couldn't add them multiple times even if the above point didn't hold - i.e he'd expend 8 to empower the first missile - where do the other dozens of d8s come from?
Lastly, radiant soul says in the description - "once on each of your turns". Which means, yet again, he'd only get to add his aasimar level in damage once per spell cast.
That's how I'd rule it. I can see how he'll argue that 'it's one damage roll, applied x times'. But even if it's very loosely RAW it is very much not RAI, which is multiple d4s for magic missile, plus bonus damage applied once.
Not how MM works, that UA is busted, you can't do that with aasimar, you can't double-dip into subclasses, you could do the loremaster thing with a feat, and it requires 20th level which means that a simply 20th level druid build beats this in 90% of situations.
Edit: Read the following if he ever does this. "As you raise your hand and unholy magics from arcane, divine, and primal powers form into 11 bolts of pure power and slam into your enemy, a horrifyingly bright explosion ensues. As you recover and rub your eyes, you see your unscratched enemy holding a dissolving scroll in the air. A first-level spell scroll, to be precise. He had cast *shield.*
Looks like he is talking about a level 20 multi classes Character not level 5 and don’t use UA as it is not full tested for play so not in official rules because it could possibly be unbalanced.
Edit: he misunderstands a few rules here:
magic missile it’s a different roll for each missile. Secondly the ability for the added damage is on one spell not one missile. Same with the radiant soul. This absolutely is not per missile! Yes we are looking at about 120 damage on a 9th level spell maybe 175 ( I don’t want to really do math) and a level 20 which straight up not awfully bad on a once per day single target. Most level 20s will be fighting way more that one target. And that’s even if you truly can use the Druid harvest scythe with radiant soul and channel divinity while casting a spell ( going to think it’s a stretch)
Pole arm master does not work on a one handed use of staff
Can’t cast an action cantrip (like booming-blade) as an attack of opportunity as it is “reaction” to them entering your range.
So, Jeremy Crawford has added on his twitter as a D&D errata that magic missile is a single D4, which is why evokers add their INT bonus to every missile.
I heavily disagree, and certainly don't play it that way at my table, but the official errata is that anything that increases the damage of magic missile adds the damage to each missile.
Wow did not know that.
Yeah...Jeremy Crawford's "errata" is kind of useless half the time. My brother uses the "one roll for all missiles" rule, and I don't. Magic missile is very, very powerful in his games.
In mine it's less powerful, but still very, very useful.
You should edit this into your original post so people can understand what is happening with this character.
I'm not super knowledgeable of mechanics in DND, so I can't add much there; however, I'll add that DND is supposed to be fun for the DM too. It's not a players vs DM type of game. Everyone is supposed to have fun at the table. Once you guys figure out the proper mechanics to his build, maybe try to have a discussion on what everyone should expect and how everyone deserves to have fun, including the DM! It is fun for you to have fun as the DM by creating a cool and challenging campaign for your players.
DMs usually only allow UA on a case by case basis, if at all. It's like homebrew. If a player is trying to break the game with unofficial content then you should be putting your foot down.
Don’t allow non-published content. Problem solved.
Bro, you’re letting your player DM his now. Character. Stop it. If you decide to not allow UA and he decides to leave then he’s the prick. Wizards literally discloses that UA is not for actual play but purely theoretical.
That’s not minmaxing my friend. That’s cheating. You’re playing with a cheater.
Stick to your guns. You're the DM and what happens at your table happens ONLY with your consent. If he can't/won't even talk you through the mechanics that lead him to make such absurd claims, then he isn't welcome at your game
You might not want to be a player down, but if he joins and is deliberately trying to get one over on you all the time, then he's going to ruin the experience anyway.
Tell them that you are limiting all spells, abilities, classes, and items to what is available in the 5e Player's Handbook and watch as their blood pressure rises.
It's one thing to min/max within the given constraints. It's another to break the game by combining things that were never intended to be mixed.
The fact this player is min/maxing is the least of your problems. Anyone who would hold the entire campaign hostage in order to play such a douche character is 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
this person is a cheater, not a minmaxer. take a look at his sheet before the game begins
first off find out how he is getting those numbers is it 300 to one target? does it require set up? how many spell slots is he wasting for it? because ive ran some crazy games with crazy nova burst characters they have limits generally, they can only output high damage in short bursts so make them use their resources throw more monsters per encounter or make more encounters or ways for them to use their spells. It will make the classes that get back their abilities on a short rest feel even better too since they don't run out of gas in the same way, so the longer you make the adventure the stronger those classes get while the weaker the cleric becomes.
other than that you need to see his character sheet, because those numbers at level 5 sounds like hes cheating or using items they probably shouldn't have at their level, and that wont be fair to the party if he can just one shot everyone and everything, But at the end of the day dnd is about fun if they are fine with him one tapping everything and its within rules somehow then run with it I guarantee they wont stand his character after more than one session anyways lol.
So he's holding you hostage, that's super not cool.
So since this guy takes 5 rounds to get going then you have 5 rounds to make him do saves he's crap at like dex which is pretty common or str which is common as well with any big man can just grapple him and his friends beat on him. Or counterspell him during one of those 5 turns and turn it into 6, he's going to be useless for a long time.
When his group is feeling bad they might pressure him to take support spells leaving him with less spell slots and prepared spells for his combo.
This guy isn’t a min maxer, he’s a cheater using unofficial material hoping to pressure you into not looking closely at his character sheet.
Resistance or immunities to lightning and thunder damage? NPC'S with magic items to negate these damages, environmental status effects, legendary or lair effects that amplify defenses or hinder his ability to get his spells off or that affect the PC directly, blindness, or other status effects.
Edit: also, how many other PC's are there? What sort of encounters are in your campaign? Are there political or religious organizations that could be used to achieve your goals that could possibly hinder the party in some way?
Comment up her to point to your comment below…. He is definitely using broken rules from UA which is not part official rules. He misunderstands the additive nature of some things applying the them to a single missile the multiplying for each missile and not the whole spell. He is quoting a system for a level 20 multi class min max. So he will have to rethink all that he says he knows. That’s what a session 0 is for
Next thing 4 20 hp monsters are much harder for a party to kill than one 80hp tank and spank. If you want to check an encounter and have dnd beyond make an encounter and test run the whole thing by yourself ( it can go faster than play as you know all the info) and adjust as needed.
Another thing to have out there is and some may yell at me for saying this…. if you make the encounter harder you can fudge rolls to let them survive. If it’s too easy then it’s just too easy.
300 damage at level 5 in a single turn? Bullshit. Sounds like he severely misunderstands 5e rules and spells.
He is probably thinking shatter with channel divinity hitting multiple targets. Which is a lot of damage but unless you are grouping all enemies tightly together its not going to get even remotely close to 300.
I haven't run into a true problem min-maxer like this, but hey, by min-maxing, he's opened up a whole lot of weakness you can exploit. Find out his dump stat and start having some saving throws for that come up more often, or just start focusing more on RP stuff.
If he's using a lot of spells to get his damage up, well, too bad that some of the enemies have counterspell or dispel magic. Or hell, too bad that the next enemy is a beholder and none of his magical prowess will help him.
I don't know his stats or how he's built the character, but if he wants to have it pure DPS, we'll, lean away from DPS. Keep it more RP, stealth, investigating, puzzles, those types of things.
300 damage at level 5? That's about as believable as the kids on Xbox saying their dad owned Microsoft. Kick the cheater
Bury him in RP and social encounters. He can't do 300 damage to a diplomacy check
What to do against a Min/Maxer?
Target the Mins.
That sounds like a real problem player. First off, how are they doing 300 damage in a single turn? Second thing, as a min maxer myself, I can understand being upset about a character you worked so hard on and spent so much time creating being banned, but threatening to leave if they get banned is just childish. If they truly do not care if people don't like min maxers, then they are just there to fill a power fantasy and don't care for others' fun.
If they are acting like this, it is not your job to accommodate them for every problem they bring, if they are threatening to leave after all this, let them, you can always find more players.
100% this. There are minmaxers and then there are power-tripping assholes who don't give a fuck about style of play and other players' experience and fun.
It's nice to see others who get it. My character might be really powerful, but they're still a character who works with others, rather than it being all about them.
Just let him do it.
When he does the combo don’t react, and go to the next player.
Next session, do the same combo as a NPC, to his character. No reaction,just dully explain the mechanics of how his character is now toast.
He wants to min max to be the center of attention, so don’t give him any attention.
Whats his Dex score? Strength? Int?
Minmaxers focus on the Max. You hit their Min.
Throw more Fireballs.
Mind Altering Int save spells.
Or just let him have his fun, find a way so everyone can function how they want. A minmaxer makes combat trivial, so lighten up on the combat. 1 combat, 2 social/RP encounters. He's going for a thundergod build so....make that a part of the story. Maybe there's something only he can do, then there's another thing where his thundergod powers are useless. Maybe he has to cast lightning bolt on an estate gone to get it going for some reason, but now he's low on spell slots and there's baddies coming.